Ida Bay cds and BN 258 on cover

[Peter Allan]

I have just been fortunate enough to find a Tasmanian cover at a stamp show in 57th St, New York. Its Ida Bay to Springfield,Scotland MR 22 1889, with a clear strike of the Ida Bay cds plus fairly clear strikes of BN 258 on 3x 2d sideface. There is a backstamp Hobart CDS MR 25 89, plus a Lanark 215 (? date) No 6 89.
Without my green Books I cant readily find further information about the IDa Bay BN and CDS. Does anyone know if they have been seen on cover before. I suspect this is a scarce example.

PS, the dealer had $40 on the cover, but said he would be happy to sell it for $30, which I th0ugh was jolly decent

Pete

Ida-Bay-1889.jpg (99.94 KiB) Viewed 6390 times

[Malcolm Groom]

Pete,

You have found a RRRR numeral on cover. Well done.

Previously only one copy known dated 15 July 1887 so rated RRRRR as a datestamp.

Reopened 18 July 1892

Maybe the dealer has more!

Malcolm

Through the kind courtesy of Randall Askeland (who has created the most significant collection of Tasmanian postal markings to be formed) the only other recorded example of Ida Bay (as referred to below) is shown for completeness.

Ida Bay 1.JPG (249.23 KiB) Viewed 6358 times

Ida Bay 2.JPG (247.27 KiB) Viewed 6358 times

[John Shepherd]

First period of opening
The Post Office at Ida Bay opened 1.9.1886.

The Post Office at Ida Bay closed on 6 July 1896 (reported in the Gazette and The Mercury 22 September 1896 p.2 - see below).

The BN is RRRR.

(BN258 was later reallocated to Kangaroo Valley).

Second period of opening
Ida Bay P.O re-opened 12.3. 1900: receiving BN325 and the 'old' cds.

[John Hardinge]

Only one other copy is known, also on cover. Great item

[Ross Ewington]

I note that one of the posts above notes only two periods of opening for Ida Bay whereas
in the second edition of "Post Offices of Tasmania - Openings and Closures 1812 to 1995"
(Magpie Publications 1996) it is stated that there were three periods of opening for this
office, namely 1 Sep 1886 to 30 Jun 1892, then 18 Jul 1892 to 8 Sep 1896 and finally
1 Mar 1900 through to 10 Oct 1902 (facilities transferred to Lune River).

Does anyone know if records exist providing information about the short period of closure between
30/6/1892 and 18/7/1892 ..... was it indeed a closure or was there just a relocation of the PO or similar?

[John Shepherd]

*Malcolm* - The cover you refer to has been illustrated in Prestige Philately's auction catalogue #112 Lot 974 held on 20 November 2004 and has been on their website for the last 5 years. Through the kind courtesy of The InternetYou can find it here:

http://www.prestigephilately.com/catlot ... ub=#tasphi

Some attribution to Gary Watson's auction catalogue would have been appropriate.

The P.O. opening and closing book referred to above is completely unreferenced so users can judge for themselves the utility of it.

[Malcolm Groom]

The source of the image was from the Randall Askeland collection.

If the image was taken from the Prestige sale (of which we were all fully aware) it would have been appropriately acknowledged.

[John Shepherd]

Incorrect.

I posted the image yesterday and properly attributed the source of it to Gary Watson's auction. My post was given the incorrect attribution by Ross and then deleted in entirety an act of petty censorship. This was before you posted an image of the cover - I suspect you didn't have it.

It doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to the cover whether it is owned by Queen Elizabeth II, Charles Manson or anyone else.

Please properly attribute your images next time.

And I forgot to congratulate Malcolm on his very first post.

[Malcolm Groom]

Your comments are incorrect. The image I posted was sourced from Randall Askeland and correctly acknowledged. I have no comment on the image you used as it seems to have disappeared.

I was aware of the Prestige lot but that was not the source of the image I used so your comments are misguided. If you examine the image I used you will note it shows a pencil notation which was not applied by Prestige

You seem to be more than happy to quote "ex Groom" for a number of items in your exhibit thus acknowledging ownership as against the auctioneer for that item so your remarks seems rather strange. I was also not aware that Charles Manson was a philatelist

[Ross Ewington]

Now back to the topic (a side topic really but related to the Ida Bay post office around the time the covers were mailed from there)

I have already noted that a previous post stated that the Ida Bay post office had two periods of opening whereas the only published text
on Tasmanian post office openings and closures states that there were three. This led me to asking a fairly straightforward question...

"Does anyone know if records exist providing information about the short period of closure between 30/6/1892 and 18/7/1892
..... was it indeed a closure or was there just a relocation of the PO or similar?"

With the recent statement that there were only two periods of opening, one could assume that some new information has come to light and I was hoping that
this could be shared with others ... I am certain that the author of the listing of openings/closures for one would appreciate any new information.

Naturally, it is the prerogative of a researcher as to where and when any new information they may have found is promulgated and I respect that right.

I understand that it is now much easier to access newspapers online and perhaps some references may have been found linking the first two periods
of opening (thus making one and subsequently only two periods of opening). Am I getting warm?

Footnote:
It has been stated above that "The P.O. opening and closing book referred to above is completely unreferenced so users can judge for themselves the utility of it.".

While not conforming to the requirements of an academic document or dissertation (which it never was intended to be), the introduction to the second edition does
cite the source of the information compiled within and the rigorous procedure undertaken to verify as much of the content as possible.

"The final listing then was the result of co-operative work by many people over a period of more than a decade. It was heavily based on official post office
records and has been checked against many surviving postmark strikes."

After nearly 15 years, in my opinion, the second edition of "The Post Offices of Tasmania" remains an outstanding, accurate and invaluable document for collectors of
Tasmanian postal history and I recommend it to all TPS BB members who seek this information.

[Malcolm Groom]

Also staying on the topic further information for the postal historians amongst us:

1. Ida Bay post office opened on 1st September 1886 with Edmund Tyler (Mill owner) as Postmaster. On 1st May 1888 Miss Elizabeth Tyler became Postmistress, followed by Watt Handy Tyler on 1st May 1889.

2. The resignation of W H Tyler and consequent closure on and from 30th June 1892 was announced in the Gazette on page 1253.

3. On page 1435 it was announced the Post Office at Ida Bay would reopen on and from 18th July 1892 with Edmund Tyler jun. as Postmaster.

4. The closure of the office on and from 6th July 1896 was gazetted.

5. The Post Office was re-established on 1st March 1900 with Miss I Tyler as Postmistress.

6. The office received BN258 when it first opened.

7. It is reasonable to assume it used the same numeral and datestamp when it reopened in 1892 (after such a short break).

8. It received a different numeral and different datestamp when it reopened in 1900.

[Ross Ewington]

Thanks and well done Malcolm !! - a top bit of research verifying that Ida Bay had three periods of operation
as listed in the second edition of "The Post Offices of Tasmania: Openings and Closures 1812 to 1995".

Unless someone has got another cover to post (been to any more stamp shops in NYC Pete?), this post is just about done.

If anyone following this post about Ida Bay may have become a little curious about the location, here's a bit of "stuff":

A general entry re Ida Bay in "Ozpedia".
http://www.ozpedia.org/Ida%20Bay,%20Tasmania

A short newspaper clipping (from The Colonist) mentioning the limestone caves
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bi ... 10528.2.21

A newspaper clipping from 1916 (from The Mercury) entitled "The Making of Cement / New Industry for Tasmania / The Ida Bay Undertaking"
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1058804

The Ida Bay Railway Photo Gallery
http://www.idabayrailway.com.au/gallery/gallery.htm

A bit of local news from 1891
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article ... 20Tasmania

I searched for a photo of the area from c.1900 but without success - if I find one at a future date, I will post it here.

[John Hardinge]

Re
Footnote:
It has been stated above that "The P.O. opening and closing book referred to above is completely unreferenced so users can judge for themselves the utility of it.".

While not conforming to the requirements of an academic document or dissertation (which it never was intended to be), the introduction to the second edition does
cite the source of the information compiled within and the rigorous procedure undertaken to verify as much of the content as possible.

"The final listing then was the result of co-operative work by many people over a period of more than a decade. It was heavily based on official post office
records and has been checked against many surviving postmark strikes."

After nearly 15 years, in my opinion, the second edition of "The Post Offices of Tasmania" remains an outstanding, accurate and invaluable document for collectors of
Tasmanian postal history and I recommend it to all TPS BB members who seek this information.


Thanks Ross. When I went ahead and had it published through Tony at the time naturally I went with the information that was available of the time. Most of it has stood the test of time. If I was to publish an update there would be a few changes, but not a significant amount and mainly effecting the RTO's and small offices.

It was indeed heavily based on P.O records. It also owed a great deal to the Green Books and the detailed research of the authors into gazettes, the blue books and scans of walsh's. For the post 1913 period I based my starting point on an original list compiled by Malcolm Groom which was a great help. I also was fortunate enough to have access to Joy Coopers original notes.

Where these reference sources agreed and late and early dates fell within the period I did not actively seek out more information . Where they did not and where gaps in regards to exact dates occurred I naturally investigated more and in many cases was able to pin down dates.

I regards to Ida Bay the were 3 periods of opening, one simply involving a brief closure whilst the search for a "suitable personange in the area" was completed. Ida Bay used 258 until it's 1896 closure. This was later reallocated to Kangaroo Valley. Upon it's 1900 reopening it would have received another numeral. Exacally which numeral remains open to some question. If the allocation follows the pattern of all other 1896-1898 reallocations where Southern numerals went to Southern offices and Northern numerals to Northern offices it must have either received a reallocated numeral(336 or 210 best possibilities) or a new numeral(383).

[Peter Allan]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the discussion about the Postal History of Ida Bay. We now have a very detailed and useful account of this tiny and remote Office and its history. It just goes to show the depth of postal history expertise existing on the TPS Bulletin Board.

I can add that the broader picture regarding the history of Ida Bay is that it continued to be the "port", or at least Deep Hole was the port at the the end of the Ida Bay railway line, for shipments of limestone from the Lune River quarry to Electrona, the site of the Union Carbide Company, opening in 1901. Limestone was heated together with coke at Electrona to make Calcium carbide, which produces acetylene gas when combined with water. The Carbide factory was in production until the 1970s,and the Lune River area provided the limestone for carbide production.

Although producing a large volume of mail, the Union Carbide Company sent all mail to Snug as far as I know as there was no post Office at Electrona( a great pity in my opinion as I spent the first 9 years of my life here and wished it had a post Office !).

I should acknowledge the work of John Hardinge in this topic. John has worked long and hard researching opening and closing dates for all Tas POs, and his publications are essential references for all interested in Tasmanian postal history including the details of the development and classification of Tasmanian Postmarks. In terms of publications to date, John must be the heir of the authors of the Green Books and deserves the thanks of all those interested in Tasmanian Postal History for his contribution.

Pete

[Ross Ewington]

A photo of the Ida Bay area (from the 1890 - 1920s period) turned out to be much harder to locate than I originally thought. Postcards of nearby Southport can be sourced without too much difficulty but views of Ida Bay, the railway or the limestone quarry and works remain elusive.

Thanks to the efforts of a fellow TPS member and postcard enthusiast, I have illustrated below a "close but no cigar!" postcard view "..at Deep Hole Southport" by R.C. Harvey and that will have to do for now. The railway from the Ida Bay terminates here (yes, it still does) and Ida Bay limestone was loaded and shipped to Hobart from this location.

I would date this card from c.1910.

deep hole harvey small.jpg (70.91 KiB) Viewed 7532 times

[Mike]

Two more Harvey postcards with views looking towards Ida Bay.

[Peter Allan]

Another view of Deep Hole ( also posted under the RC Harvey topic in the Postcards forum )

Deep-Hole-Southport.jpg (528.96 KiB) Viewed 7477 times

Pete

[garnhaml]

The two photos shown are actually labeled Southport Lagoon which is about 50 min walk inland from Elliot Beach and Deep Hole where the latter shipments of limestone were made from a jetty. The views are NOT looking towards Ida Bay but over the lagoon at low tide with Mount La Perouse in background of the first and the sea exit in the second card.
I was there this W/E to make this observation.
regards
Lew.