328 tied to Blue Tier Junction

[Malcolm Groom]

328 Blue Tier tie.jpg (156.63 KiB) Viewed 4263 times

A recent uprated 2d embossed envelope offered on eBay provides new information for the excellent 2nd allocation listing produced by John Hardinge and Randall Askeland.

Blue Tier Junction was originally allocated 185, then 270 (E 14/5/1889 and L 25/7/1889) before the office was issued a new style 185 (E 1/7/1891)

This cover dated 21/4/1894 ties numeral 328 (originally issued to Dasher opened 1/1/1892 to 21/3/1897) and was thought to have been reallocated to Poimena (renamed from Blue tier Junction) with the Poimena tie to 328 having an early date of 26/3/1898.

This cover now ties 328 to Blue Tier Junction four years earlier (before the name change to Poimena) and indicates that Dasher lost it's numeral three years before it closed (or was it ever issued to Dasher?)


Erratum:
The reference to the change of name relates to the name on the date stamp as recorded tied to 328 in 1898 and should read Lottah, not Poimena as I stated.

[John Shepherd]

A very interesting new discovery.

Tasmania Vol.I records a piece with BN328 and a Lottah cds but concludes that it is not a 'tie' and the Lottah cds was struck in transit. (The date of the piece is not recorded). Is this correct?

Is there a case that BN328+Blue Tier Junction were used at that place, BTJ changed name to Lottah and a Lottah cds issued?

I can't help to observe that Lottah is at the junction (see map). Poimena is not at the junction of anything (!). Blue Tier is the name given to the whole region. The Anchor Mine was often said to be in the Blue Tier region.

[John Shepherd]

Having looked into this a bit further it seems to me that:

Blue Tier Junction and Lottah where the same place -

*BN328 is tied to BTJ in 1894 as per the new cover.
*BN328 is tied to Lottah in 1898 (on sideface piece). This is probably the piece referred to in Tas Vol.I although no date is given there. I incline towards thinking that the Lottah cds is not a transit.
Whether it was a simple renaming or whether the P.O. at BTJ closed and was moved a short distance to Lottah needs further work. The Gazette gives quite a detailed description of the location of BTJ (at "The Junction, Blue Tier and Thomas' Plains Roads") which could be cross referenced against old maps.

Blue Tier (no 'Junction') was an entirely separate Post Office which was probably renamed Poimena. Again Blue Tier is given a detailed different location (at "Tin Mines") which could be cross referenced against maps.

The above are just my random thoughts, I don't have my notes in front of me.

[John Shepherd]

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[Ross Ewington]

To add to this discussion I provide an image of the relevant card from the E.R. Pretyman* Index to Tasmanian Place Names
[attachment=0]pretyman.jpg[/attachment]

Pretyman indicates that these name changes were gazetted in 1895. Namely, that Blue Tier Junction (that had been briefly renamed as Poimena) would now be known as Lottah. Also that the office at Blue Tier would be known as Poimena.

Therefore, it would appear than the nomenclature and PO opening/closing dates as provided in "The Post Offices of Tasmania" (2nd edition) edited by A.E. Orchard still stand.

The previous correspondent has stated that "The Gazette" entries make it clear, to me, that there was no name change from BTJ to Poimena" whereas Pretyman cites a reference that Blue Tier Junction was indeed called Poimena (but only for a short time apparently).

If there is evidence in any editions of "The Gazette" that Pretyman's reference is incorrect, it would be great to have it cited in this topic.

While McFarlane's History of North East Tasmania is interesting to read, it is actually a compilation of unreferenced newspaper articles written by MacFarlane and published in the N.E. Advertiser during the 1950s and early 1960s .... I would call this work good quality oral history but when quoted in support of other research, corroborating evidence from other studies should also be cited in my opinion.


* Regarding the Pretyman Index, this introduction is provided on the State Library of Tasmania website: "This is an extensive card index compiled over many years. The creator, Ernest Roy Pretyman, had a strong research interest in the origins of Tasmanian place names, and was a member of the Nomenclature Board, although this index was a private work and not undertaken for that body. It comprises entries derived from Nomenclature Board decisions gazetted in the Tasmanian Government Gazette and documents the early usage of place names in records such as the correspondence of the Lands and Surveys Department (series LSD1), early maps, the papers of Leslie Norman (series NS503) and in contemporary publications, Journals of the Land Commissioners, almanacs, gazetteers and newspapers."

[John Shepherd]

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[John Shepherd]

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[Ross Ewington]

Before I reply to the previous two posts I would like to state that I regard the purpose of this or any other forum hosted on the TPS BB is for friendly discussion only. Points of view will differ of course but we are not posting here to win points and decide who is the victor and who is the loser on any particular issue .... i.e. the fora are not intended as a debating chamber. They are provided for inquiry, the exchange of ideas on "anything Tasmanian" and the provision of information to interested collectors.

My response to the two previous e-mails:

The Pretyman index is entirely unreferenced ..................... I have used the Pretyman index for quite a number of years and have checked out many of the references cited. While not done to the rigorous standards required by academic research (as mentioned above, it was produced for private use only) he does usually state a source for the information on the majority of index card; e.g. "Hobart Gazette 1895" (see my previous post)

and is second hand information .......................... I guess it all depends on what you mean by "second hand information". I am certain that if the State Library of Tasmania considered the information in the Pretyman Index to have a high degree of accuracy, they would never had gone to the time and expense of providing a digitized version on their website. I understand the the work of Mr. Pretyman is highly regarded by academic and amateur historians alike.

The Pretyman entry for BTJ is cryptic - is he saying that Blue Tier Junction and Lower Junction were both called Poimena? ................... "Blue Tier Junction and Lower Junction recently renamed Poimena ....." Yes, that's what he said - nothing cryptic there in my opinion.

The localities of both BTJ and Poimena as quoted by me are direct quotes from the Gazette which are reproduced in the Green Books. BTJ was at the junction of Blue Tier and Thomas Plains Roads. Blue Tier was at the tin mines. These are two quite different places. ..................... apparently so, but this mean that Blue Tier Junction couldn't have been named Poimena for a very short period of time in 1895? Although Pretyman's reference is incomplete I don't think I can dismiss this statement until I find some empirical evidence to support it or state otherwise.

I prefer the Gazettes over a secondary source such as Pretyman. .................. I prefer to use a range of sources. I have never assumed that everything reported in a Government Gazette is always 100% accurate.

There is no doubt that BN328 is tied to BTJ in 1894 as per the new cover. BN328 is also seen on 1898 piece with a Lottah cds. These are facts. ................... I have no opinion to the contrary. Here's an image of the Lottah "tie" that has been referred to previously.

[attachment=0]328 lottah tie.jpg[/attachment]

Whether BTJ was ever renamed Poimena and whether a Poimena cds was used there is speculative. .......................... speculative it may be but a highly regarded reference such as the Pretyman Index is worthy of some "follow up" research at least. I can't recall anyone ever suggesting that there could be a tie of BN328 with Poimena in this topic.

Can anyone produce a cover or piece which ties a Poimena cds to BN328? ............................. "The Post Offices of Tasmania" (2nd edition) edited by A.E. Orchard provides an opening and closing date for Poimena in 1895 as 1 Jul 1895 and 22 Jul 1895 respectively ...... this ties in with Pretyman's report that Blue Tier Junction was known as Poimena for a very brief period. Twenty-two days is a very brief period indeed and there is no way that a datestamp inscribed "Poimena" could have been prepared and issued in such a narrow time-span. There are examples of "redundant" datestamps being used for some time after a name change e.g. Peppermint Bay and Long Bay just for starters.

What is overlooked is that whilst the Board may change the name of a locality, this does not mean that the Post Office will change the name of a post office or provide a new date stamp. Surely a listing of barred numerals must be correlated with what the Post Office did (and was published in the Gazette) not with what the Board did? If one follows what the Board did you will end up on a wild goose chase. ............................... I am not certain what "Board" is referred to here. Therefore, I shall delay my departure on the "wild goose chase".

McFarlane actually interviewed a lot of pioneers of the district when they were still alive so it is quite accurate, moreso than an unreferenced card index. ............."McFarlane actually interviewed a lot of pioneers" therefore McFarlane then was a collector of oral history. From my experience, the accuracy of oral history is always to be questioned unless supported by other more tangible evidence. Pretyman was not an oral historian, he collected his evidence from documents, published texts, photos, reports and maps.

The book exactly corroborates what is in the Gazettes. I would caution against relying too heavily on the card index and prefer to let the original material and the Gazettes (and the Post Office) speak for themselves. ............... and I would caution against relying upon oral history and an assumption that all content in every edition of the Government Gazette is 100% accurate copy but thanks for the advice anyway.

The Pretyman index was created in the 20th century and is not remotely contemporary: ............ I am concerned that this means that we can only write a history on the era in which we live. Not being able to research history about another era would put a lot of people out of work and clear quite a few shelves in bookshops!


"Ernest Roy Pretyman was born on 17 August 1892, the son of Ernest Henry and Alice Pretyman (nee Bulley). He was both a collector and amateur historian and published many articles on aspects of Tasmania's history. He was employed by the Hobart Savings Bank from 1908 until his retirement in 1949 and during World War I served in the 40th Battalion. He was a foundation member of the Tasmanian Historical Research Association, a member of the Nomenclature Board and Royal Society of Tasmania and served on the Board of Trustees of the Narryna Folk Museum. He died on 3 December 1985". ........................... foundation member of the Tasmanian Historical Research Association, member of the Nomenclature Board andthe Royal Society of Tasmania and served on the Board of Trustees of the Narryna Folk Museum. That's a fairly impressive c.v. in anyone's terms and indicative of why Pretyman's historical research has always been so highly regarded.

The Board was not even established until 1954. .......... I don't understand the relevance of this statement and cannot comment.

I was unaware that this card index had been elevated to biblical status! .......... so am I. Where did you hear that?

[Peter Allan]

Before I reply to the previous two posts I would like to state that I regard the purpose of this or any other forum hosted on the TPS BB is for friendly discussion only. Points of view will differ of course but we are not posting here to win points and decide who is the victor and who is the loser on any particular issue .... i.e. the fora are not intended as a debating chamber. They are provided for inquiry, the exchange of ideas on "anything Tasmanian" and the provision of information to interested collectors.

My response to the two previous e-mails:

This is a very interesting discussion. Ross, thanks for that clarifying email which paints a very balanced picture of the status of the various references. We now have a very clear understanding of the various references and their strengths and weaknesses.
The following image is from an old map 1889. While not shedding any more light on the issues, it does show the post office services in place at Blue Tier and Blue Tier Junction around the time, although a few years earlier . In case you are wondering, the large red circle shows rainfall ( at Goulds Country), the diamater in proportion to the annual fall in inches, and the number (4) denotes the number of years records had been kept. The dull red line shows postal routes, the blue line telegraph lines. [attachment=0]Blue-Tier-Junction-1889.jpg[/attachment]

[John Shepherd]

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[John Hardinge]

Have been on leave for a month and largely ignoring emails, however, I have one note to make that covers the usage of the numeral period listing and will then attempt to give a potted history of the BTJ/Blue Tier/Lottah/Poimena offices.

Firstly, the numeral period listings as published on the TPS website are a guide to collectors only. It is simply the best guess as we know things at present and is certainly not infallible. What should have been attached to the listing in all probability is a key. Numerals are listed next to offices in 3 categories. Where the number is in bold it indicates a definate "tie" of the office that should be correct. Where the number next to the numeral is underlined it indictaes that there is an excellent reason to assume that this is correct. ie it is listed on PMG records as belonging to the office, it is not tied in the period of opening concerned but is tied from an earlier period, it is the only number in the P.O opening period that could conceivably fit etc. The last type is where the number is not in bold. There are thankfully not that many of these now. Where the number is not in bold it is speculation, best guess, call it what you will. These of course, will be subject to change, just as this tie has proven.

SEcondly, ow would I revise the listing in the light of this discovery? It seem likely that Dasher still received a numeral. On evidence now it may have been much earlier, possibly either 79 or 80 in second type in 1890. Long Island may not have received a numeral until 246 in 1893. It would appear on evidence that 328 went directly to Blue tier Junction in early 1892, probably to replace the recut or second type of 185 which was possibly still unsatisfactory for some reason.

Lastly, the brief history of the offices are:

1.3.1877 Blue Tier Junction opened and allocated 185. 185 last seen tied to BTJ 25.8.1888. As 185 was unusable or damaged 270 was used as a relief from at least 14.5.889 to 25.7.1889. 185 in the second type(which may or may not be a recut of the original 185) was then reallocated, probably l;ater in 1889 although it has only been seen in 1891(two dates). For whatever reason, it would seem that this cancel was still unsuitable and 328 was then reallocated as a permanent replacement in early 1892. On 1.7.1895 Blue Tier Junction was renamed Poimena followed by a further renaming to Lottah on 22.7.1895. The old Blue Tier Junction CDS would have been been replaced by a Lottah CDS sometime between 1894 and early 1898.

1.10.1877 Blue Tier opened and allocated 187. In the late 1880's/early 1890's this numeral suffered severe damage and is seen tied in shocking condition. In approximately 1891(probably June) this CDS was replaced in the new, 4 bar type. On 22.7.1895 Blue Tier was renamed Poimena(to coincide with Poimena, formerly Blue Tier Junction being renamed Lottah). It subsequently closed 31.8.1897. Whilst Poimena was closed 187 was allocated to Merseylea which opened 20.10.1897. Subseqently when Poimena reopened 1.2.1898 it required a new number, which was 308.

[Ross Ewington]

Hi John H.

Many thanks for your excellent and detailed information. Do you have any information re the 22 days in 1895 that Blue Tier Junction was named Poimena as listed in the second edition of "The Post Offices of Tasmania". One correspondent to this topic has indicated that he believes there is no evidence that this temporary name change occurred whereas it was quite easy to find a referenced note (image provided in a previous post)indicating that this brief name change did in fact occur in the well-regarded "Pretyman Index" of Tasmanian place names.

Is there a post office record verifying the temporary name-change? Of course finding a BN328 tied to Poimena is not a viable quest because the Blue Tier Junction cds would have been used right through to the renaming to Lottah anyway.

It's great to have you back online John - I imagine that you will find a lot of postings that will be of interest to you have been made since your last visit!

[John Hardinge]

To my knowledge both the 1.7 and the 22.7 name changes were gazetted. Both certainlty recorded by Joy Cooper in her research as well. Also by Alan Tulip. And on the evidence of this cover, also pretty much comfirmed.

[Mike]

I have been following the debate on the 328 tie to Blue Tier Junction with interest. I saw the item on eBay and thought it would generate a good price but not so much debate. Therefore, for a bit of light relief I have scanned 2 postcards of Lottah which I hope are of interest.

Card 1 Spurling card, no number, Lottah and The Blue Tier, posted Lottah 22/1/08 (The Jubilee Hotel can been scene in the centre)

Card 2 Jubilee Hotel, Lottah, Foot of Blue Tier. Posted St Helens 25/?/07

[Ross Ewington]

Thanks Mike ...your cards are excellent as was your well-timed injection of some light relief. Do you
have an image or two of any of the mines in the area?

[Mike]

A couple of local mining postcards. (Perhaps we need to start a new thread "Mining Postcards") The Anchor mine was just down the road from Lottah and was the largest mine in the area. Today, it has been developed as a tourist attraction. Most of the mine has been reclaimed by the rain forest so you would not recognise the site from the postcard. I believe the Arba mine was also nearby. A bit of reseach is needed here. This card is from a good quality set published by Birchall's Launceston. I am not sure how many cards are in this set. Another thread needed ?

Card 1 Pub by Spurling (no number) PU at Carrick 27/3/07

Car 2 Pub by Birchall's Launceston, with printed pro forma, dated 14 Feb (34) ?? Not sure of the year, 34 seems a bit late ?