POSTCARDS ON KODAK PAPER - IS IT POSSIBLE TO "DATE" THEM?

[Ross Ewington]

Real photo postcards are arguably the most interesting postcards, especially when they record
a specific event. It can be frustrating however if you can't work out the year (or even decade) a particular
card dates from when there are no obvious clues like "Peace Arch, Hobart" (it has to be 1919).

Kodak "Austral" photographic card for postcards (with POST CARD printed on the message side) was possibly the most
popular choice by photographers between WWI and WWII. Examination of the backs of cards show a slight variation
in the design of the "stamp area" which reads "KODAK" twice horizontally and "AUSTRAL" twice vertically. In one or
four of the corners there is also a cross. Occasionally a number appears inside the "square".

This forum is a most suitable place for trying to ascertain whether you can "date" a postcard on Kodak paper
by the back. The example below has been annotated "Feb. 1927".
[attachment=0]kodak postcard 1.jpg[/attachment]
If you have any "dated" Kodak postcard backs with this design or any other variation, please post an image here.

While we are at it .. your earliest and latest use of postcards with the "Kodak Austral" back would be great to record here too.

[Ross Ewington]

This card used in 1924 has a "U" in the middle of the Kodak Austral "stamp box".

austral 1924.jpg (20 KiB) Viewed 22978 times

[Ross Ewington]

This example is from a postcard with a New South Wales scene used in 1937.

[attachment=0]kodak 1937.jpg[/attachment]
Sorry the quality of the image isn't the best but it was a "capture" from an online auction site.

[Ross Ewington]

This example is dated 3rd June 1931 - note that the T is absent (or just about) from AUSTRAL on both sides.
This is most likely to be of no importance whatsoever but if we can find another card with a similar "fault"
it may turn out to be of significance for "dating" purposes.

kodak 1931.jpg (53.51 KiB) Viewed 22963 times

[Ross Ewington]

This card is dated 1928 - note that the cross is absent from all but the UR corner

kodak 1928.jpg (72.61 KiB) Viewed 22959 times

[Ross Ewington]

This Kodak Austral card was printed in 1912 (RP view of "S.S. Oonah" on the rocks" by E. Winter)
The printing is more ornate (Art Nouveau style?) than the post-WWI cards and the "stamp square"
has dots instead of crosses in the corners.

kodak 1912.jpg (35.24 KiB) Viewed 22950 times

[Ross Ewington]

This card dates from 1933 - the photo is a view of the H.M.A.S. Australia in port at Burnie during March of that year.
Card mostly likely to have been produced by Ernest Winter

kodak 1933.jpg (43.92 KiB) Viewed 22936 times

[Ross Ewington]

This card is dated 1916.

kodak 1916.jpg (94.52 KiB) Viewed 22931 times

[Ross Ewington]

Assuming they are not later prints, these cards date from 1926 as both have cast photos taken during the screening "
For the Term of His Natural Life" at Port Arthur during August/September of that year.

kodak 1926.jpg (33.86 KiB) Viewed 22925 times

[Ross Ewington]

I am indebted to Neville Solly for providing me/us with this listing about KODAK AUSTRAL postcard backs.
Apparently, it dates back many decades and was forwarded to Adelaide stamp dealer P.K. Stalley (of "Wide-World" FDC fame)
from an anonymous collector of postcards residing in Melbourne.



....but the search continues. If you have any Kodak Austral cards with verifiable dates, please post an image in this topic. Just
the top of the back at 125 or 150dpi will be fine (see examples above).

[Ross Ewington]

This card was used in 1922 and has what appears to be "18" or "1B" or similar in the stamp box.

kodak 1922.jpg (43.11 KiB) Viewed 21807 times

[Ross Ewington]

Tasmanian card with message dated 1919 - thanks Mike!

kodak 1919.jpg (23.86 KiB) Viewed 21803 times

[Ross Ewington]

1926 - on back of souvenir card prepared for the world tour of the "Australian Ladies Pipe Band".

kodak 1926 2.jpg (22.18 KiB) Viewed 21797 times

[Ross Ewington]

This card is dated "1913" and is of Tasmanian origin.
[attachment=0]kodak 1913.jpg[/attachment]

To see all of this interesting card proving that "Budgie Smugglers" as a popular style of
swimming costume had a predecessor, follow this link: http://tps.org.au/bb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=489#p2043

[Ross Ewington]

This card is from 1923 and has an 'R' in the stamp box with crosses in all corners.
[attachment=1]e100a.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=0]e100.jpg[/attachment]

[Ross Ewington]

This card from 1905 may pre-date the introduction of "Austral" photo postcard stock

ue1056a.jpg (309.33 KiB) Viewed 21345 times

ue1056.jpg (266.04 KiB) Viewed 21345 times

It is probably of British manufacture as I have not seen any cards originating from the United States with this back.
"For Inland Postage Only..." inscription on verso suggests this as well.

Doe anyone have any Tassie views printed on this photo stock?

[Ross Ewington]

This card of a snowfall in Franklin Square, Hobart is dated "July 1922" - the Kodak Austral 'stamp box' has a cross in all corners plus the number '7' printed within.

bb1603.jpg (630.09 KiB) Viewed 21302 times

bb1603a.jpg (165.82 KiB) Viewed 21302 times

[Cameron]

I have just started looking through a collection of old family photos and found this to be the site with the most comprehensive set of information on this topic. Mine are nearly all from Brisbane, but I doubt that will make any difference.
Most are studio photos of people, and of course, most have no date. I have checked over 50 Kodak postcards so far, with 16 that I have a definite date and 2 where I am reasonably confident of the date, assuming I have the right person.

Because most are studio photos, I presume they would have a fairly high turnover and relatively fresh stock. Even so, I can see no obvious trends with dating, apart from the obvious early K-A series. I have none of the later K-G or K-H type. The known dates of all my cards cover the range from 1912 to 1927.

Most common: K-D

By far the most common card (over 70%) are the K-D type - all letters the same size and with 4 crosses. These are divided roughly 50:50 between those having an internal number or letter and those being blank.
I have looked at the interior numbers and letters for K-D style but can discern no useful trends. Lower numbers tend to show up in earlier photos, but I don't have a big enough range to tell - I have seen none outside the range 1919 to 1924. Certainly the blanks, letters and numbers overlap in time. I have blank K-Ds ranging from 1915 to 1937.

Big K with 4 crosses

The next most common is not even listed in the Peterson/Stalley table: that is a large K for the last letter of Kodak in the top row, and having 4 crosses - see next image. I have them with interiors blank, with numbers and with letters.
This design ranges from 1922 to 1931. The blank internal version covers this range and the numbers and letters occur within that range.

Stamp with large K and 4 crosses

Kodak_K4_287-large group veranday.jpg (118.63 KiB) Viewed 18496 times

Other unlisted styles

I have undated examples of yet two more styles not in the Peterson/Stalley list. They are based on K-D, but have only 3 crosses.

Letters same size, 3 crosses, top-left missing

Kodak_D3tl_264-woman+old man with kero tin.jpg (129.26 KiB) Viewed 18496 times

and

Letters same size, 3 crosses, bottom-right missing

Kodak_D3br_290_Linda-Murwillumbah studio.jpg (164.85 KiB) Viewed 18496 times

I am beginning to wonder if all these variants with fewer than 4 crosses simply represent instances where the type has fallen out, broken off or otherwise not been inked properly.

Typography

Other changes that I have not seen commented elsewhere are with the typography. These next three images show that, even with a single design (K-D), different fonts were used at different times - or maybe even at the same time.

1915

Kodak_D_283_Belmont 1915.jpg (134.99 KiB) Viewed 18496 times

1917 print

Kodak_D_284_Belmont 1917.jpg (120.56 KiB) Viewed 18496 times

finer font, unknown date

Kodak_D-19_272-blank Thiel studios.jpg (122.26 KiB) Viewed 18496 times

There is a general trend for later cards to have a finer font, but again it is not clear-cut. It is not simply a case of the type wearing out, or different amounts of ink being applied because not only does the stroke thickness change, but the width to height ratio also changes.

Cross shapes

A final observation relates to the crosses themselves. A very specific shape was used, as you can see in my first scan - I'm sure it has a specific name, but I don't know it. Playle's site, for example, lists corner shapes being either diamonds or elongated plus signs. The "diamonds" I am sure are simply this cross with excess ink running into the diagonals.
As for any being like an elongated plus sign, I have seen a few that could be taken for that (such as the bottom line my the last image), but I think it more likely that they are from worn or damaged type.

[Cameron]

Unless we can collect and analyse many hundreds of these postcards, I think we are limited to the following conclusions, based on the contents of this thread.

The number of corner crosses, whether deliberate or accidental, offers no useful information for dating purposes and can be ignored.

The internal letters and numbers might have useful date information, but we have not collected enough to know.

The following designs and dates are known, with date limits not being guaranteed.
Because of the unnecessary complexity in Peterson's naming together with missing designs, I decided to use a different scheme.

Unless otherwise stated, all have "KODAK" along the top and bottom of the stamp box and "AUSTRAL" running down the left and right sides.

Type KP-1:

• Peterson's K-A and K-AA
• design: solid circles in corners, heading with or without scrollwork.
• first seen: 1908
• last seen: 1914

Type KP-2:

• Peterson's K-B, K-C, K-F, etc
• design: Crosses in corners; last letter K of top line is enlarged
• first seen: 1913
• last seen: 1933
• almost all are in the 1920's
• interior of stamp box can be blank, or have a letter or number (22 is largest seen)

Type KP-3:

• Peterson's K-D, K-E
• design: Crosses in corners; all letters are the same size
• first seen: 1915
• last seen: 1940
• interior of stamp box can be blank, or have a letter or number (19 is largest seen)

Type KP-4:

• Peterson's K-G
• design: Crosses in corners; all letters are the same size; word "KODAK" replaces Austral
• first seen: 1920
• last seen: 1930

Type KP-5:

• Peterson's K-H
• design: 5-pointed stars in corners
• first seen: 1945
• last seen: ?

[DonAnderson]

I have a KODAK AUSTRAL Postcard which I would like to try to date. It of Type KP-3 (Peterson's K-D) and the interior of the stamp box is blank.

TPS01 Mary Anderson Brisbane Post Card rear.jpg (40.96 KiB) Viewed 17386 times

Your evidence suggests that this style was first seen in 1915 and last seen in 1940 - that's a wide date-range!

The postcard is an undated studio portrait of a woman and bears an embossed symbol identifying the studio as that of Poul Poulsen, Brisbane.
Poulsen Studios advertised regularly in the 'small-ads' of The Telegraph, Brisbane, but the first evidence I can find of their advertising Post Card Photographs is a 'boxed advert' in The Telegraph (Brisbane) of Sat 12 Jan 1918.

So maybe I am now narrowed to 1918 to 1940 - but that is still a wide date range!

However, within the stamp box there is the number '1723' hand-written, in pencil. Maybe this is a Poulsen Studio serial or account number?
I wonder whether any other member has a Poulsen Studio, Brisbane, Post Card Photograph with such a 'serial' number, and which carries some other clear dating reference? If so that might indicate whether my card was produced before, or after that date . . .

[Cameron]

I have found only seen one Poulsen studio card in my collection. It is dated 1921 and has no detectable pencil codes. It has a printed '8' in the stamp box.
It is a studio photo of a baby of a friend of the family, so I would guess the parents had many copies made, and so I would not expect the studio to mark every one.

It has the same embossed design as yours - I wonder if their stamps changed over the years and that might provide a clue. My only other Poulsens were large prints where the embossing was on the matte or things like Paris Panels, where the studio name was on the bottom strip of card. So they don't help.

You might try the State Library or John Oxley collection for Poulsen prints.

[DonAnderson]

Cameron, thanks for such a speedy response.
Your Poulsen card is interesting. I wonder if anyone else has such a card?
On my card, the Poulsen Studio embossing is approx. 5/8 in. (16.6 mm) in diameter.
The monogram in the centre is distinctly the entwined letters PCP.

Poulsen Studios PCP monogram.jpg (40.13 KiB) Viewed 17386 times

Poul Cristensen Poulsen actually died in 1925, but his sons and a grandson continued Poulsen Studios in Brisbane:
N. H. Poulsen (son of Poul): Poulsen Studios Brisbane w.1915 - 1920s
William Poulsen (eldest son of Poul): Poulsen Studios Brisbane 1909 - 1950s
William C. Poulsen (son of William Poulsen): Poulsen Studios Brisbane 1900 - 1950s 
The Telegraph, Brisbane Fri 15 Dec 1916 cites the form of P.C.Poulson & Son at 11 to 18 Queen St. Brisbane
The Telegraph, Brisbane Sat 13 Dec 1924 identifies NH and WC Poulsen as the proprietors of Poulsen Studios at 18 Queen St. Brisbane.
I wonder whether they continued to use the PCP monogram after he withdrew from the business?

I'll now try to follow up your suggestions.

[GarethL]

If this is of any help: I have a postcard printed on type 'D' paper. Date of the photograph is apr 1925, the subject is two polar bears at Beaumaris, which arrived in 1924 as cubs, and in the photo the animals are still sub-adults. The card itself was purchased and sent sometime after 1932, there's no date in the text, but the novel 'Inheritence' by a Dr Phyllis Bentley, and which was first published in 1932. There is one digit '3', next to 'OZ' remaining of the post mark from where it must have been franked beyond the stamp, which has been removed, I'm assuming this suggests 1933 as a date of sending.

[GarethL]

Apologies for the poor quality.

20180427_181308.jpg (197.71 KiB) Viewed 17399 times

[GarethL]

20180427_181254.jpg (145.87 KiB) Viewed 17399 times